У русских матерей в Финляндии отняли уже 49 детей, подсчитали активисты

[Mishka Na Servere]

Сообщение от Mace Windu

Очень рад, что смог вас впечатлить. Вы букву «д» пропустили, во втором слове.

Спасибо, исправил. Теперь еще и под впечатлением от вашей внимательности

[Holly]

Сообщение от Oliya

Так голосование "против" как раз получается в поддержку трудностей усыновления для той женщины и правильности отправления к папе той девочки.

Олия, вы не совсем меня поняли, я считаю что это хорошо что ребёнка отдали отцу, и та женщина тоже так считала.
Из её рассказа, я так поняла, она была рада, что отец боролся за девочку и смог забрать её.
Она теоретически хотела бы больше детей, но не ценой того, что их заберут у любящих и желающих их родственников...и она говорила что процесс усыновления ребёнка занял около 5 лет и по деньгам что-то около 30 штук, они просто не потянули бы еще...
Просто по мне, если детей смогут усыновлять, тем более за рубеж - это сроду смертной казни - уже нет возможности исправить ошибку, если такова произошла в системе, а если дети у фостеров - тогда можно бороться, что-то менять, исправлять и.т.д... Вот как-то так.
Конечно, если быть уверенным что всё будет только во благо детей и семей, можно рассуждать о полезности этой затеи, но вот я как-то не уверена, слишком скользко это - отдавать такие права в руки посторонних людей т.к. что ни говори но человеческий фактор будет играть очень большую, даже слишком большую роль...

[Yapi]

Сообщение от Holly

Олия, вы не совсем меня поняли, я считаю что это хорошо что ребёнка отдали отцу, и та женщина тоже так считала.
Из её рассказа, я так поняла, она была рада, что отец боролся за девочку и смог забрать её.

Не совсем понятно как она могла радоваться что девочку отдали назад отцу при том что были серъёзные указания на то что она подвергалась сексуальному насилию с его стороны? И что-же в этом хорошего?

[Holly]

Девочку отдали родному отцу. Mать девочки, когда её забрали, жила с сожителем а не с родным отцом ребёнка. Извините, если как-то не так выразилась и меня недопоняли что сожитель и отец - разные люди...
Вообще, лучше это не обсуждать, я пост подредактировала. Спасибо.

[Yapi]

Сообщение от Holly

Девочку отдали родному отцу. Mать девочки, когда её забрали, жила с сожителем а не с родным отцом ребёнка. Извините, если как-то не так выразилась и меня недопоняли что сожитель и отец - разные люди...

Ну так здесь другое - отца то никто прав не лишал и у отца никто девочку не забирал? Так что всё правильно. Даже в полоумных Штатах сначала отдадут ребенка второму родителю (если первый лишён прав) а уже только потом будут забирать совсем. Всё логично.

[Holly]

Сообщение от Yapi

Всё логично.

Да, логично, я и написала к тому, что всё-таки система работает и исходя из рассказов той женщины - детей не пытаются во что бы то ни стало оставить на попечении государства, по крайней мере в их семье никто не задержался, хотя они совсем не против были бы иметь еще детей в семье.
Отец той девочки не проживал в Ирландии на момент этой истории, возможно был даже депортирован т.к. я поняла он ехал за ребёнком из Нигерии и таки ему пришлось попотеть дабы ребёнка вернули...но таки вернули.

[Oliya]

Сообщение от Holly

Олия, вы не совсем меня поняли, я считаю что это хорошо что ребёнка отдали отцу, и та женщина тоже так считала.
...

А, я-то подумала, что там возмусченийе. Типа - ужас в Нигерию дитё отправили.
Так у той фостер семйи не появлялис дети забранние из приличних семей, просто так. Как, по мнению Стива, происходит сплош и рядом? Странно.

[Steve]

photo sharing

Steve добавил 12.10.2012 в 17:40

images

[Конный Водолаз]

Да, к большому сожалению, дети из неблагополучных семей, даже попав в нормальную семью, имеют все шансы так и остаться неблагополучными.

[Yapi]

Я один ничего не вижу в последнем посте Стива кроме фотографии?

[Конный Водолаз]

Об отце Саманты Мортон:

Morton was first taken into care as a baby. She never learned why as a child, and remains unsure to this day. Everybody concerned - mother, father, social services - has a different version of the truth. Family life was certainly not helped when her father got the 15-year-old babysitter pregnant (he went on to marry her) and her mother moved in with an alcoholic. There were times when Morton returned to live with her father until she was eight. Then she was made a ward of court, which meant she could never return home - again, something she didn't know at the time. She describes her father as a "brilliant man", a huge influence on her life, so desperate to be a good dad. She has not always felt like this about him.

Did he hit her? "Yes. Yep." Badly? "Yep."

Можно представить, какой была мамаша, если посчитали, что даже с таким отцом ей лучше. Потом видимо узнали об избиениях, и забрали навсегда.

Стив, а вы как на это смотрите? Кажется ли вам, что ей было бы лучше с матерью, которая жила с алкоголиком (и полный список ее подвигов мы не знаем), или с отцом, который ее избивал?

[Steve]

Сообщение от Mace Windu

Об отце Саманты Мортон:

Morton was first taken into care as a baby. She never learned why as a child, and remains unsure to this day. Everybody concerned - mother, father, social services - has a different version of the truth. Family life was certainly not helped when her father got the 15-year-old babysitter pregnant (he went on to marry her) and her mother moved in with an alcoholic. There were times when Morton returned to live with her father until she was eight. Then she was made a ward of court, which meant she could never return home - again, something she didn't know at the time. She describes her father as a "brilliant man", a huge influence on her life, so desperate to be a good dad. She has not always felt like this about him.

Did he hit her? "Yes. Yep." Badly? "Yep."

Можно представить, какой была мамаша, если посчитали, что даже с таким отцом ей лучше. Потом видимо узнали об избиениях, и забрали навсегда.

Стив, а вы как на это смотрите? Кажется ли вам, что ей было бы лучше с матерью, которая жила с алкоголиком (и полный список ее подвигов мы не знаем), или с отцом, который ее избивал?

условия в которые она попала были ещё намного хуже, так что при всех минусах её родителей, ей было бы лучше жить с кем-то из них, или с кем-то из родственников..

Steve добавил 12.10.2012 в 18:02

Сообщение от Oliya

Так голосование "против" как раз получается в поддержку трудностей усыновления для той женщины и правильности отправления к папе той девочки.

Правильно, ребёнок должен жить с родителями, или с одним из родителей, или в крайнем случае с кем-то из родственников, а не в детдомах или у фостэров...

Steve добавил 12.10.2012 в 18:04

Сообщение от Mace Windu

Нет, не лень. Вы привели такие цифры:


Я поискал поиском по документу http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/Publi...report2011.pdf — там нет чисел 231, 835 и 818. Поэтому я и спрашиваю, где конкретно вы взяли эти цифры.

эти цифры я взял из вашего документа за 2006 год

Steve добавил 12.10.2012 в 18:05

Сообщение от Mace Windu

Конечно, отрицаю. Насколько бы известным и незаангажированным ни был журналист, объективно осветить что-то можно только имея полные данные. Они не могут иметь полные данные, т.к. сторону соц.служб (их аргументы, заключения врачей, их собственные заключения etc.) по закону никто не имеет права освещать.

то есть по вашему выходит что соцслужбы всегда правы и раз так, то всем детям мира лучше жить в детдомах и у фостэров?

[Yapi]

Сообщение от Steve

условия в которые она попала были ещё намного хуже, так что при всех минусах её родителей, ей было бы лучше жить с кем-то из них, или с кем-то из родственников..

Очень может быть что с ней плохо обращались в социальных службах. Но забрали её мягко говоря не из благополучной семьи. Ещё неизвестно что с ней бы сделал отчим-алкаш или папа-педофил.

Ждём примеров массового отбора детей из благополучных семей. За то что ребенок получил лопаткой по лбу в песочнице. Вы обещали.

Yapi добавил 12.10.2012 в 18:09

Сообщение от Steve

то есть по вашему выходит что соцслужбы всегда правы и раз так, то всем детям мира лучше жить в детдомах и у фостэров?

Согласно приведённой статистике большая часть детей возвращается либо к родителям, либо к родственникам. Детдомов здесь нет вообще. Чё ещё нужно?

[Steve]

Сообщение от Mace Windu

Измения в конституцию никаким образом не затрагивают процесс «отбирания детей». Там вопрос о том, что детей, при живых родителях, при необходимости можно будет усыновить.

дело в том что решения о передаче детей под контроль соцслужб/фостэрам или об усыновлении будут и дальше приниматься закрытыми семейными судами, которые заангажированы и работают в одной команде вместе с соц-службами. Если бы решения принимались бы обычным нормальным судом, да ещё и с присутствием присяжных и обычной публики, то я бы не возражал. А так - рука руку моет, им всем нужно показивать движение на своей работе чтобы получать высокие зарплаты, бонусы, и гонорары..

Steve добавил 12.10.2012 в 18:41
вот, кстати, о Мортон:

She has of late expressed frustration with what she sees as a fixation on her difficult childhood, but it is, by any measure, a remarkable story: her parents split up when she was three; she was taken into care when still a young child and placed with a succession of foster families and children's homes. It led to periods of sleeping rough and an abortion at 16. That same year she moved to London and began acting at the Royal Court.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/oct/05/film.musicnews

[Steve]

...и ещё:

'I was abused for a long time and I retaliated'

Samantha Morton's new film is based on her experiences as a child in care. She talks for the first time about a showdown when she was 14 and the criminal conviction she now sees as her salvation. Interview by Simon Hattenstone

The Unloved is a bleak and beautiful drama about a little girl in a care home. The girl, Lucy, just happens to have ice-blue eyes and look how we might imagine the young Sam to look. She is rejected by her mother, beaten by her father, thrown into a Nottinghamshire home where she gets into trouble with the police, runs away time and again, and witnesses yet more abuse. All the time, she is looking for one thing: love. Somebody to love her, somebody she can love. Everything in the film is seen from Lucy's perspective. We stare up towards an adult waist and the terrifying prospect of a belt being unbuckled, sounds are heightened (birdsong, a running bath, the swish of the belt), and elements of the story are left unexplained because Lucy simply does not know, for example, why her mother can't look after her. She could be selfish, physically ill, mentally ill, or all three. The Unloved is Ken Loach on downers. It offers little in the way of hope or consolation - and it is a brilliant depiction of aloneness.

Morton, now 31, was 16 when she started storyboarding the film. She was living in a hostel for the homeless when she read an article about a young prostitute in Nottingham and realised this was somebody she had known in care. Years later, she read about two other girls she'd known who had also become prostitutes and had been murdered. The reports had a huge impact on her.

From the age of eight, Morton moved between care homes and foster parents. Any number of them - she can't remember how many. She says The Unloved is a censored version of what she experienced. What did she dilute? "Violence, sexual abuse, torture..." If she had included everything, nobody would have believed her, and anyway, it was always intended to be a film that children could watch. "I'm not going to make a children's film and turn it into a horror film. I wanted to make a film that someone from the age of 13 could watch and get, and it would change them." It was also important to Morton that the film would be shown on television before its cinema release. After all, she says, that's where people such as her experienced film for the first time, watching the likes of Kes on the telly at school.

It's funny, she says, when she was really little she was a right scrapper, frightened of nothing or nobody. "If somebody bullied someone else, I'd go and knock them out." Then she withdrew into herself. And eventually she found a new kind of strength. "One day I just thought, what can you do to me, really?" She sings me a line from the Robin Hood song: "He's a fighter not looking for a fight" and says that's her. "My answer in my late adolescence was not fight back. It was to say, you can do anything to me but you won't really upset me. That's why Psalm 27 is at the beginning of the film: 'The Lord is my light... Whom shall I fear?' Because you can do anything to me, physically, but you can't get in here," she says pointing to her heart, or maybe her soul. The Catholicism she grew up with - iconic imagery, knees sore from praying, guilt - never really leaves you, she says, no matter how much you might think you have left it.

Morton went to a good comprehensive school, neighbouring a wealthy area. But she always felt an outsider. "The houses on that road are million-pound ones, yet I was living in a children's home two buses away, where I was up most nights because of riots or sharing a room with a prostitute. You can't get your homework done and you fall behind." At 13, she left school for the last time, spending most of her early teens raving, taking ecstasy and hallucinogenics with older children and young adults, lawless and lost. Sometimes she returned, or was returned, to the homes or foster parents. Between 13 and 14, she was homeless for almost a year, sleeping at friends' houses or in bus shelters.

How close does she think she was to screwing up her life irredeemably? "Massively. Completely. Massively." Does she think she could have ended up selling sex, like the friends who were murdered? "No, not that kind of darkness. No, for me it was drugs."

Although Morton turned her back on school, she was jealous of those who had a regular education. "I had a massive chip on my shoulder, like a big bag of McCains. I walked past the girls' high school in Nottingham, a private school, and I'd see them bunking off, and I'd think, you twats, your parents are spending a fortune on your education. I was very bitter, I suppose. My appetite for knowledge and literature and music was massive. The reason I didn't go to school was because, at that point, I'd already - excuse my language - fucked it because I'd run away so much when I was younger." So she determined to educate herself. "Someone said to me if you read the Guardian and the Times every day, you'll learn everything you need to know." Who was it? "A drug dealer of mine." She smiles.

Presumably, much of her anger was directed at her parents? No, she says instantly. "Never, never my parents. Always authority. Always the establishment. That's because I grew up in Nottinghamshire in the 80s with Margaret Thatcher destroying everything." As for her mother, she says she would make a great character in a Loach film. "She lost a lot of her rights as a woman and a mother very early on. I'm not going into it too much, it's her business." It's surprising, and touching, how protective she is of her parents. "Just because somebody doesn't bring up their children or can't look after their children doesn't make them a bad person," she says of her mother. "There are all sorts of reasons - illness. There are so many reasons you can end up in care."

In addition to raving, her other source of release through her early teens was acting. Here she could lose herself in a healthier way. At 13, she was picked to join the Central Television Workshop for young actors. Her intensity marked her out as special and a little scary - if she was asked to improvise conflict, it would often nearly end in a fight.

At 16, she moved to London and was cast in roles uncomfortably close to her own history - in Cracker she played a pregnant teenager (Morton had an abortion at 16), a car thief in Boon, a junkie, homicidal prostitute in Band Of Gold.

She has a knack of bringing a disarming, everyday quality to extreme characters. In Under The Skin, one of her first starring roles, Iris is a woman numb with grief who beds stranger after stranger as she tries to force her way back into feeling. As Myra Hindley in Longford she flits from vulnerable tenderness to monstrous manipulation, toying with us so subtly that we're never sure where we stand. Occasionally, her characters are so quiet they almost disappear - in Control, it is such a shock when downtrodden Debbie Curtis finally raises her voices and stands up for herself, you almost jump out of your seat.

Good actors are often said to unpeel layers of skin in front of us. At her best, Morton doesn't seem to have skin in the first place. Sometimes, I say, acting almost appears to be an out-of-body experience for her. She nods enthusiastically: "When I do takes at work, if I'm not completely somewhere else I always have to go again. It's almost like madness." And she says that she's unlikely to direct another film, however well The Unloved does. "I'm an actor. That's what I'm gifted at. It's what makes me breathe. People say when they self-harm it's to breathe, to live. My self-harm, if you like, is acting, because I feel alive when I do it. I cannot live without it."

In the past she has said things got so bad that in her mid-teens she contemplated killing herself. I ask why, and she goes quiet. Look, she says, you're young and homeless, you're involved in drugs and crime, you think you're in control and you're anything but. "You're still a kid and you think you're a grown-up. I did awful things at times, and I did those awful things through being under the influence of drugs or not being kind to myself and not loving myself and not knowing how to be kind." She pauses.

"Between the ages of 14 and 16 I was in a very dark place and then came out of it."

"Were you stealing a lot?"

"Um, yeah, but no," she says. "I had to steal my food. I stole from shops to eat, and that's different from stealing for the sake of it, for fun or a dare."

How did that darkness express itself? Through depression? "No. I got into trouble with the police quite seriously as a kid. And I thought, this could affect the rest of my life."

Did you get convicted? "As a mother I have to be very careful what I say. Everything I say to you now I have to feel I could have that conversation with my children because it's going to be in print." Did the conviction result in a sentence? "Yes." For a week or a month or a year? "It was an 18-week sentence at an attendance centre."

And was that what changed you? "Yes, revolutionised me. I felt humbled, I felt remorse, I felt embarrassed. I felt better than the way I was treating myself. I was a twat. I was a little twat. I can be kinder to myself and say there were reasons why, but at the end of the day you can't justify certain things, you have to grow up and get on with it."

We talk a week later. She's been thinking a lot about the conviction and says that if ever there were a time to talk about it, it's now, with the film. "I was physically abused, bullied by someone for a long time, and I retaliated. We were kids, products of a crap environment. The only person I hurt in the end was myself."